Wally visits Carl’s church and has lots of questions about the experience at his mega-multi-site church. Wally has a lot of questions of what is going on. These are some of those conversations.
Carl and Wally – Wally visits Carl’s church
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Tag Archives: church servcies
Get on the Church bus, or get run over.
Too many progressive and seeker friendly churches put the emphasis on the wrong things. All the while running over people who Christ called us to love. As you will see below, if you don’t fit the mission, look out! The church bus is coming for you.
Caveat First
To my reader who may not know Christ as your personal savior. My hope is that in reading the following post, you’ll know what to look for in a church fellowship. As Christ followers, we are called to love you. You won’t find perfect people, but you can find a Christ fellowship that shows Christ’s love to each other. And that love starts with a true understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. So look for the Gospel being presented, open your Bible and trust Christ to be your savior. But beware, there are places that call themselves churches that do not show the love of Christ. They may have a good show, but don’t preach the forgiveness of sins which is the starting point for understanding the Love of Christ. Instead, they concentrate on dopamine experiences entertaining and pleasing the flesh. This blog post will hopefully provide you with tips on finding a good church family and staying away from the destructive ones.
In the end when our lives are done, we will know that humans will always fail us. But with our faith in Jesus, the real Jesus, you have hope for now and eternity. Trust Christ.
And to my reader who knows Christ, the Bible is clear. We are to love God and love others. We are to make disciples. That is it. However, the challenge today is many churches mega or small are not fulfilling the law of God. Nor are they making disciples instead they are making minions or cult followers maybe; but not Christian Disciples.
Romans16:17 Now I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create divisions and obstacles that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Turn away from them. 18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
The Catalyst – Ready? Ok, here we goooooooooo……
“There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill Bus and by God’s Grace it’ll be a mountain by the time we’re done. You either get on the bus or you get run over by the bus. Those are the options. But the bus ain’t gonna stop.” – Pastor Mark Driscoll” A statement he made to a conference room full of pastors.
Being raised a preacher’s kid, I have witnessed all kinds of disgusting behavior in the name of God. The above statement is one of those most vile I have heard. Mark Driscoll pastored over 14,000 people in 5 states, and this was his approach to representing Christ? A former megachurch star, Mark Driscoll left the church he co-founded after allegations he plagiarized his books and bullied people who worked for him. You can learn more from the podcast, The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. If only this was an isolated incident. But it is not. Many mega church pastors like Mark take on a cult like image; church vision and culture is god because it increase numbers. And anything goes to get people in the seats, make them happy, and have them give money. Cynical? Yes. True? Absolutely.
At the root of Driscoll’s and other mega, and mega wannabe pastors’ methodology is something called Vision Casting. Vision Casting churches have what some consider a cult like structure. I would call it corporate methodologies. As you hear from Driscoll in the video above, people were to do as he said or get thrown off the bus and run over. It is eerily similar to a corporation. You have someone at the top, the CEO for example, he or she casts the vision for the corporation. It is expected that everyone will sign on with that vision, and those who do not serve the vision will find themselves moved out of their positions or fired right out. Either way, it is the corporation’s way or the highway. People are what they are, subjective employees.
With the rise of seeker-friendly and progressive churches, one thing many have in common is a move away from teaching Biblical doctrine. Instead, they are centered around an experience at church, and the cult like vision casting leader who is responsible for growing the church. And how is that done? By providing what people want to experience. Consider Mega Church Pastor Joel Osteen, he would make a good motivational speaker, but his sermons lack significant contextual Biblical foundation. Sin is called mistakes, and God’s power is replaced with a narcissistic doctrine such as the ‘little god’s’ doctrine. Many churches have found out that if you feed people’s narcissism and call it Christianity, that will fill the seats for sure. This method produces many mega churches that are often centered around the vision caster. I recently read an article about Ron Carpenter leaving his church. The article described many of his congregants as ‘spiritual orphans.’ I call that the Cult of Church Worship
Church vision casting, or the idea that God gives each local church their own vision has no foundation in the Bible and is grandiose narcissism. Jesus gave us one ‘vision’ if you will, one command that applies to all local churches;
Or this example from Steven Fertick’s church Elevation. Such a nice cartoon to indoctrinate children to follow a man.
Matthew 28:16-2016 But the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they [a]worshipped him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: 20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you [b]always, even unto [c]the end of the world.
There can be only one goal of the church. That’s it, that is the only ‘vision’ or direction that each Christian church has. To say a local church as a specific vision that another church doesn’t implies that God has spoken to that church something contrary to what Jesus said in Matthew 28.
If ‘Vision Casters’ like Mark Driscoll and others were honest, they would just say what they really mean, ‘this is how I’m going to run the church, all of you work for me paid or free, and I’m going to do what I want, and if you don’t like it, hit the road.’ But it is much more manipulative to say ‘I have a vision for the church that God gave me.’ That implies a direct revelation from God, for a specific group of people. Something that is not supported in scripture.
Jesus being a micro pastor.
Matthew 20: 24When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers. 25But Jesus called them aside and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them.26It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,27and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave— 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”
So why do many modern churches not love? Just a theory.
Number 1: In today’s self indulgent culture, we are in it for ourselves. So why would we listen to a church leader who talked about serving, and actually showed us what serving is? Well, because we don’t want to serve ourselves. We’d much rather go to church, get what we can out of it, and feel better about ourselves. Jesus tells us in Matthew 20 that he himself came to serve. This is what we as laity (regular folk) and church leaders should exemplify. In other words, the laity is not the servants and the church leadership the masters. We are to serve each other. But that requires us to be aware of our sinful flesh. We are no good people at birth. Even Jesus said that only his Father is good.
Number 2: This is related to number 1, but we like our idols. We want to believe in someone tangible. Someone who feeds our narcissism. That’s what you see from Mark Driscoll, for him to be so abusive and have such a large following, he was feeding people what they want and was in ministry much longer than he should have been. But as you see with Mark, when the gods people hold onto fall, there is devastating damage. I’m so glad I don’t put any faith in any human. They are imperfect just like me. They are sinners like me. And one day they will die like me.
Number 3. And the final reason church people don’t love is, they have a false sense of who Christ is. They believe the fairy tails learned growing up and don’t understand that Jesus came with one purpose, to save those who believe, this was his Father’s will. Luke 22:42. Even Jesus did his Father’s will. If we would read our bible, we would see that Christ came to serve, and tells us to do the same. I once heard someone say, ‘church is not about you.’ While I see what they are trying to say, I would disagree. Church is about you loving God and others. Saying it’s not about you does nothing but insult people. Words matter.
Love as Jesus explains it: In Luke 10, Jesus tells the story of the Samaritan helping the man in the ditch who was robbed and beaten. A man asked Jesus what it took to inherit eternal life? “27 He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’c and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’d” I think we have that love of self perfect eh?
There is so much we could exposit from this story, but one key point is Jesus said ‘Go and do likewise.’ Go and do what? Help those in need.
Close your eyes! Wait. Then you can’t read.
Matthew 7: 15Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20So then, by their fruit you will recognize them.
My mom told me that we are fruit inspectors. So in church, it’s pretty easy. Those who do not love, choose to rule, dominate, and disregard the sheep as merely bodies instead of serving and protecting the sheep, they are wolves. Strong? Yep. So about that fruit.
Galations 5:
16So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us walk in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying one another.
-But we can’t know the fruit of the Spirit if we are not -producing- it ourselves. If we are selfish, if we misuse people, and are led by our flesh, we are on the wrong side of Jesus. –
God’s Warning
Jeremiah 23:1“Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture!” declares the LORD.
2Therefore this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says about the shepherds who tend My people: “You have scattered My flock and driven them away, and have not attended to them. Behold, I will attend to you for the evil of your deeds, declares the LORD.
3Then I Myself will gather the remnant of My flock from all the lands to which I have banished them, and I will return them to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and multiply. 4 I will raise up shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or dismayed, nor will any go missing, declares the LORD.
For those like Mark Driscoll, save he repent of his sins, God’s judgement will be upon him. And to the same extent, those in our local churches who sow for greed, how cause the church to scater instead of ‘feeding’ the sheep, this judgement is theirs as well.
Body Parts
My friend reminded me the other day that as Evangelicals, we love 1 Corinthians 12 but will skip right over most of it to talk about what we get out of it; Vs. 27, “First are apostles, second are prophets, third are teachers and so on.” But in my lifetime of going to church, I can not remember hearing a message about what comes before in verses 12 – 24.
One Body with Many Parts
12 The human body has many parts, but the many parts make up one whole body. So it is with the body of Christ. 13Some of us are Jews, some are Gentiles, some are slaves, and some are free. But we have all been baptized into one body by one Spirit, and we all share the same Spirit.
14 Yes, the body has many different parts, not just one part. 15 If the foot says, “I am not a part of the body because I am not a hand,” that does not make it any less a part of the body. 16And if the ear says, “I am not part of the body because I am not an eye,” would that make it any less a part of the body? 17If the whole body were an eye, how would you hear? Or if your whole body were an ear, how would you smell anything?18 But our bodies have many parts, and God has put each part just where he wants it. 19 How strange a body would be if it had only one part! 20 Yes, there are many parts, but only one body. 21 The eye can never say to the hand, “I don’t need you.” The head can’t say to the feet, “I don’t need you.”22 In fact, some parts of the body that seem weakest and least important are actually the most necessary. 23 And the parts we regard as less honorable are those we clothe with the greatest care. So we carefully protect those parts that should not be seen, 24 while the more honorable parts do not require this special care. So God has put the body together such that extra honor and care are given to those parts that have less dignity. 25 This makes for harmony among the members, so that all the members care for each other. 26 If one part suffers, all the parts suffer with it, and if one part is honored, all the parts are glad.
Unity in church? This is what it takes, it’s not a competition, it’s not a slave master relationship , it’s not about manmade vision where we are all worker bees with jobs in the church fellowship. It’s about exactly what is described in 1 Corinthians 12, – All – are important to God. None are more unimportant. We are all sinners, we all serve the same God (well most of us do). We should never do like Mark Driscoll, pick and choose who sits on the bus. It’s God’s bus if you will. We have no right nor should we look at other folk in church as just bodies to be used. That’s what Mark did.
The Church at Ephesus: Lost Love
Revelation 2:1–29
English Standard VersionTo the Church in Ephesus
2 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: ‘The words of ehim who holds the seven stars in his right hand, fwho walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 g“ ‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but hhave tested those iwho call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. 3 I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up jfor my name’s sake, and you khave not grown weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned lthe love you had at first. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do mthe works you did at first. If not, nI will come to you and remove your lamp-stand from its place, unless you repent
When Paul visited the church in Ephesus, he spent time teaching Christ, love for each other and warning the Ephesians to beware of false teachers, idolatry which Ephesus had plenty. So why does Revelation 2:2-5 criticize the church at Ephesus? This church while working hard to preserve doctrine had lost their love for one another. Throughout Paul’s teaching, he continues what Jesus taught us, and that was to love other. If we are to love our enemies and pray for them. Matthew 5: 43-48
Alternative analogy: The Goats
There seems to be a theme eh? One of my favorite songs from Christian Singer Song writer Keith Green is “the Sheep and the Goats”
He said it best. There isn’t a way for me to improve on it.
The Wrap.
The story of Mark Driscoll is sadly being repeated over and over again in churches today. Church folk are looked at as employees, things to be used for vision caster’s purpose. I’ve seen it over and over.
I personally struggle to understand why God would add folks to an unloving church. God is God and he can do what he wants. Psalm 115:3 But hopefully the wolves show us how much more we need to love each other, support each other, and do as God; count the weakest as the most necessary. Hopefully we recognize that we are to serve, to love, not to be served. Just as Christ did.
A final thought on 1 Corinthians
So if we continue on in Corinthians, we come to the passage more people are familiar with;
1 Corinthians 13:1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a ringing gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and exult in the surrender of my body, a but have not love, I gain nothing.
Or to put it in todays vernacular
If I go to church and don’t have love, I’m a seat warmer.
If I am positioned to shepherd over people in church and don’t have love, I’m just a boss.
If my church serves coffee, but doesn’t have love, then it’s a Starbucks knock off.
If we have great programs at church, but don’t have love, then we are just a Moose Lodge.
And if we have the best entertainment with all the fog, silly light shows, and best music and have not Love, then we really should pay 10 bucks at the door and expect popcorn.
About the author: Steven Davis is a overcooked preacher’s kid, musician, former social worker and media producer.
References:
The Bible
Divided worship services at church: How multiple church services hurt your church
How multiple church services hurt your church
I grew up going to one church service on Sunday morning, one on Sunday night, and one on Wednesday. When someone got married in the church, everyone was invited to the wedding. And singing Bible songs in Children’s Church. We were one big family. Everyone knew everyone else, except for visitors, so we would have Family day at the park.
Today, many churches strive to grow larger and larger. To accommodate space requirements, churches will often divide their worship services into an early service, later service, even off-site services.
The Catalyst
Each time I drive by a church and see the words, ‘Traditional Service and Contemporary services’ I often wonder why. I wonder what the-traditional people think of the-contemporary people?
We went to a church that had three services. The first Traditional Service was at 8:00 a.m. , then a Contemporary service was at 9:30 a.m. then another Traditional Service at 11:00 a.m. So the pastor would dress up for the first service, dress down for the second, and then dress back up for the third. Tie on, tie off, tie back on. So the shifts were traditional-contemporary-traditional. They also had two other church meetings that ported in the pastor’s live message at the contemporary service. So five total services on one Sunday from one pastor and ‘main church.’ Whew. I’m tired.
There are reasons churches do multiple services, here are two;
- There are just too man people for their building.
- Pick a good growth plan, and grow grow grow. It’s what church growth is all about. You plant a church, do demographic studies and cater your church to that demographic so you grow it as big as you can. So at some point, you have too many people for the main service location. The dilemma is too many people, so to keep growing, a second worship service is a way to go. Or is it?
- It is strictly a cultural concern.
- You have a thousand folks in your church. And half of them don’t like loud music, they like hymnals instead. This generation can’t really connect with the worship service direction, so you have to do something to please the unhappy folk. Or do you?
- So what to do, you split the congregation by offering both traditional services and contemporary services. That makes everyone happy right? But should our happiness drive church decisions? Unfortunately, it does too often. Otherwise, we take their marbles and go to a different sandbox, right? Sounds a lot like a consumer mentality doesn’t it?
What is lost with multiple worship services;
1. Support:
When we segregate a church meeting, we put up barriers to opportunities for support. As a church family, we are to be there for each other. But how are we to support someone if we never meet them? While somewhat silly, an example goes like this. Ms. Smith goes to the early service, but Ms. Jones goes to the later service. Ms. Smith is going through a horrible life experience and it just happens to be what Ms. Jones went through last year. If they never meet, there’s no opportunity for Ms. Jones to support Ms. Smith.
And of course, God can bring them together. But if the church meeting structure is such that they are kept from each other, then how will they meet? Some would say community or small groups are the way. Regarding Small or Community Groups;
Small Group Story: My wife and I sat in our home as a fellow church goer lamented to us about an experience with the small groups at church we all attended. She went to a community group and felt like a fish out of water. As she continued to describe the small group demographics, she realized she was twenty or so senior to most people at the group. She then mentioned at some point it was suggested to her that a different community group might fit her better. One that fit her age. She was still upset about it when she talked to us. It was sad to hear how hurt she was, a sense of rejection from a part of church that is supposed to be supportive.
2. Mentoring:
As people age, their physical, financial, and emotional challenges increase with the loss of spouses, income, and family members. When Jesus helped those in need, they were the marginalized of society. When churches segregate one generation from another, people lose an opportunity to sit under the same roof with those who may have dealt with the same issues we deal with as younger folk. In other words, each segregated generation worships in a vacuum, and younger church folk never learn from those older church members.
The church should celebrate those church members who have advanced their faith as much as they have in age. In other words, we should learn from those who have gone before us. Instead, with today’s post-post modern church, the goals are numeric growth and structural segregation based on demographics. In other words, we put these people here because they are all ‘this.’
Instead, should we not have one family that can learn from each other, young and old?
What is Gained from Multiple Worship Services
1. Leadership Weighted Identity:
A church should never take on the identity of its leadership. The identity of a church meeting should resemble Christ. So how is a church meeting with three different demographic or numeric services to resemble Christ? Pastor worship is a real phenomenon in church. Most churches that have multiple services handle the main message a couple of ways. When we went to the traditional-contemporary-traditional church, there were actually two other church meeting branches that watched the live video feed of the pastor’s message during the ‘contemporary’ service. Which meant, the worship of the other two church meeting branches had to time the end of worship so they could see the live feed of the ‘main message.’ Worship had to end on this particular time so the live feed of the Pastor’s message could stay on schedule.
The Defense of multiple worship services:
- Our church does so much in the community because of the number of people that go there. It is unquestionable that churches with more resources have a larger reach. Is there inherently anything wrong with a large church service because of numbers, probably not. Does a church get so large that people feel like a number? Yes. Does a church get so large that the church takes on the personality of the leadership because they are the key figures in the church meeting? Yes.
- We have many programs that get people programmed into our church. ‘We have this group, that meeting, that ministry and so on.’ ‘And that’s how we make our large church smaller.’ But is this a method that resembles a business? Using a massive volunteer base to supplement a large infrastructure with only the leadership being paid salaries is odd logic and akin to a corporate methodology to maintain the multiple of processes.
What to think about.
When Jesus ministered on Earth, crowds followed him from town to town. What we don’t find in his ministry is the segregation of ‘the flock’ by age or any other demographic for that matter. Jesus and His message was for everyone. He fashioned His message to reach the masses. He didn’t have hymnals for this service and loud contemporary music at another.
So what should our churches look like? What is the solution to overcrowding? Should our message thereby church service be relevant and designed for everyone? That is what Jesus showed us. Are our multiple services done to grow numbers? Do we grow numbers while sacrificing what a church meeting or service should be about? Are we a number in a crowd when we attend large churches? Is the pastor so far removed from the flock that he is unreachable? Is the church so large that the biggest personality, is the pastor?
Should multiple services be based on demographics? I would offer that it is one of the most damaging choices a church can make. Quintessentially it creates two churches, one full of this demographic, and one of this other one. The traditional-contemporary-traditional church we went to was like that. Sometimes we overslept and went to the later traditional church. Other than a few leaders such as the pastor and associate pastor, everyone was different, they had a choir, organist, and completely different order of service. And yes church pews. And yet, they were only down the hall from the location for the ‘middle contemporary’ service.
What should a church meeting do when they grow so much there’s no room? Good question. If the solution is multiple services, then how is church support, mentoring and identity addressed? Does it not make more sense to take a branch of the church to maintain support and mentoring across the church meeting’s demographic? Our church meetings should be for the masses.
Overcrowding is a good thing. What we do with it, is the question. Of course, it’s cheaper to have multiple services than build a gigantic building or establish another church. But maybe it’s more the case that we need smaller churches than a gigantic one shuffling people in and out on a set schedule. Maybe we should return to the focus of the Acts church, and that’s supporting each other.
And we should never be so arrogant in church work that we don’t question our methods. We are, after all, imperfect people, therefore our actions are bound to be less than pristine. So we should be open about our imperfections, and humble about changing course with humility.
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About the author: Steven Davis is an over-cooked preachers kid, recovering social worker, musician, media producer, and writer.